TRANSCRIPT OF THE PRIME MINISTER
THE HON JOHN HOWARD MP
INTERVIEW WITH PAUL MURRAY, RADIO 6PR
23 October 2001

MURRAY:
Good Morning Prime Minister

PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning Paul, I just point out that I'm doing you before I do Larry King.

MURRAY:
Off course you are.

PRIME MINISTER:
Now let's get our priorities right.

MURRAY:
That's very good of you to have made the time available to us too. Okay, now let's get right into it. There appears to be a growing perception best expressed by Dennis Shanahan on page one of the Australian yesterday and also by Gerard Henderson in the Sydney Morning Herald today, that you're hiding behind international events and have no domestic agenda in this election. Is that fair criticism?

PRIME MINISTER:
No it is not fair criticism. I didn't create the tragic circumstances nor did I want for a moment the tragic circumstances that have thrown international issues to the fore. This election is being held at exactly the right time according to the Constitution. It's not a late election, it's not an early election. It's an on time election. We do have a very extensive agenda for a third term, for example: we'll maintain the very strong economic growth that this country has had over the last five and a half years. You can't spend more on health and education, you can't boost resources for human services unless you have a strong and growing economy. And even our fiercest critics acknowledge that economic management is very much an area where the Coalition is very strong and Labor is very weak. Never forget that when Labor was last in office they left us $96 billion of debt, interest rates went to 17 or 18 percent and when Mr Beazley was Minister for Employment, unemployment reached eleven percent. I have already laid out some very extensive policies for a third term and over the next two and a half weeks, including this week, we'll be laying out some further policies. But can I just remind people who might, like Dennis Shanahan and others who make this criticism, that in the Budget we funded the biggest ever commitment of additional funds for Defence. We've funded Backing Australia's Ability, which is a $3 billion investment in science, innovation and education. We've heard a lot from Mr Beazley about Knowledge Nation, he hasn't promised anything over and above what we are already implementing. We've been on the job….

MURRAY:
He said you left him no money to do the …

PRIME MINISTER:
Well okay, the corollary of that is that he opposed some of the things that we've spent money on. But he didn't say so at the time. This money that we are alleged to have wasted was spent on defence, it was spent on road funding, it was spent on science and innovation, it was spent on additional measures for self funded retirees, it was spent on health, it was spent on the environment, it was spent on salinity. $17 billion…

MURRAY:
You left out petrol excise.

PRIME MINISTER:
And petrol excise. I thank you for reminding me of that. Now is Mr Beazley thereby saying that he will reintroduce the automatic indexation of excise? Has he ruled that out?

MURRAY:
Well the brought it in the first time round.

PRIME MINISTER:
They brought it in the first time and what he is doing, he called for cuts in excise, when we do it he then complains that we are spending the money. This is him walking both sides of the street. One minute he is saying "you've got to do something about this thing, it is hurting the people". When we do something about it he then says "oh you are spending the money that I hoped I could have to spend on my projects". What Mr Beazley apparently wanted us to do was not to respond to the concerns of the Australian people, but to create a situation where his priorities, rather than the priorities of the Australian people, were the first application of the surplus, incidentally that we built up in the face of his opposition. He is being doubly hypocritical. He is not only criticising us for spending money on things he wanted money spent on in the first place, but he's the bloke that left us with the debt and then opposed our attempts to get rid of it.

MURRAY:
You've put out thirteen policies since the election started. And you'd have to say that probably only the one that you've mentioned is a big hit issue. Three of the policies actually go to the international events like Border Protection and defence.

PRIME MINISTER:
Well, they are very important issues.

MURRAY:
Dennis Shanahan says, "all that we've seen from the Coalition are warmed over minor policies, handouts in marginal seats and a lacklustre performance in the leaders' debate." When are we going to see some meat from where you are going to take the nation if you get back?

PRIME MINISTER:
Well we've already laid out in the Budget…. I mean, this election campaign is not a judgement on five weeks. It is also a judgement on five and a half years. I know Mr Beazley doesn't want to be judged on what he has done over the past five and a half years because it's been precious little. But when you have an election people are very shrewd. They are not just taken in by what is said during the campaign, they look back over the five and a half years and they say to themselves "has this fellow Howard really tried to put the national interest first. What job has he done with the economy? What's he done about workplace relations and incidentally, you talk about policies, we've laid out an agenda to reform workplace relations which involves further attempts to get rid of the unfair dismissal laws, secret ballots before strike action in relation to certain industrial issues and also strengthened powers in relation to action being taken by small business. So we've laid out quite an extensive further agenda in that area. But let's make the point again that an election is an opportunity to make a judgement about what people have done and not done….

MURRAY:
There are two hundred and ninety eight pages of that in your achievements so far..

PRIME MINISTER:
Are very impressive.

MURRAY:
Two hundred and fifty eight pages of that but very little new material.

PRIME MINISTER:
Everybody balances their campaign in a particular fashion.

MURRAY:
But are you really just offering us more of the same?….

PRIME MINISTER:
Can I say two things. That if this country has over the next five and a half years the sort of economic growth it's had over the last five and a half years we'll have lower unemployment, we'll have rising living standards and we'll have a level of competitiveness in the world that will put us in an incredibly strong position. To offer more of the same and we are not just doing that, when the same as you call it is a growth rate that outstripped the United States, is a productivity improvement that outstripped the United States, which is repaying $58 billion of $96 billion of government debt, which gives us the lowest interest rates in thirty years, there are a lot of people listening to this program saying that if that is what he is offering in the future I'll go for it thank you very much.

MURRAY:
Sure, no doubt about it.

PRIME MINISTER:
Because it is a record of achievement and the last thing that I am going to do is allow this election campaign just to be about what is said during the campaign. Mr Beazley can't escape and I can't escape the people making a judgement on our behaviour over the last five and a half years, not just during the current five weeks.

MURRAY:
Prime Minister, before we go to the calls, I just want to raise one matter, a very current matter with you. The news has come out today that tragically some 350 asylum seekers on their way to Australia have drowned after their vessel went down and that should be hung around the neck of the people who arranged that trip for sure. But Opposition Leader Kim Beazley is saying about this today that it is a failure of your policy to deter illegal immigrants. I'll just give you a short clip of what he is saying this morning..

MR BEAZLEY:
The only way you'll get this trade stopped is by agreement with Indonesia. And the only political party that can achieve that, I think the evidence of the weekend demonstrates that clearly, is us.

MURRAY:
So what's your response to his…

PRIME MINISTER:
Well his claim that this illustrates a failure of policy on part of the Howard Government, that is a desperate slur. A desperate slur. This vessel sunk in Indonesian waters. Now I am saddened by the loss of life, it is a huge human tragedy and it is a desperately despicable thing for the Leader of the Opposition to try and score a political point against me in relation to the sinking of a vessel in Indonesian waters. We had nothing to do with it, it sank, I repeat, sunk in Indonesian waters, not in Australian waters. It sunk in Indonesian waters and apparently that is our fault. Isn't it interesting, every time something goes wrong and you've got a choice between the Australian Government, blaming somebody else overseas, Mr Beazley always blames the Australian Government, we're always at fault.

MURRAY:
It's a point he raised during the leaders' debate.

PRIME MINISTER:
We're talking about here about deaths. We're talking here about the deaths of 350 people and what my opposite number is trying to do is to score a political point out of the deaths, the sinking of the vessel that claimed the lives of 350 people. Now I think that is outrageous, nothing can excuse that kind of behaviour. The Australian people will see through that sort of transparent behaviour. If there is a responsibility for this human tragedy the responsibility lies with the people smugglers, I don't even criticise and I don't criticise the Indonesian Government let alone the Australian Government, but for Mr Beazley, for the alternative Prime Minister of Australia to desperately try and attack blame to me and my colleagues for the tragic deaths of 350, I mean the words he used where it's a major human tragedy, very sad thing, what it points to is the failure of policy. Now in other words he's saying because of our alleged policy failure we are in some way responsible for this tragedy occurring. Now can I say that is about the most desperate thing I've heard in this election campaign.

MURRAY:
But it goes to the argument he raised in the leaders' debate where he said…

PRIME MINISTER:
I tell you what it goes to his opportunist political character, that's where it goes to.

MURRAY:
Let me put this point to you, he said during the leaders' debate in Labor's time only 2,000 asylum seekers had come our way and in your government's time 10,000 had come and he says it's because of your poor relations with Indonesia.

PRIME MINISTER:
Well that's just incorrect.

MURRAY:
That's his argument.

PRIME MINISTER:
Well he's wrong. But even if he weren't wrong that's irrelevant to the claim he's now made. I mean what he's said is it's our policy that has caused this to happen.

MURRAY:
Yes that's what he's saying.

PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think that is despicable. I think the Australian people will see that as despicable and the will rightly see it as an attempt by him to score a political point. Can I just make one other point in all of the interceptions that the Navy has undertaken, lawful interceptions we've undertaken, there's been no loss of life, we've been very careful in relation to all of that. Now you've got 350 people apparently tragically died in Indonesian waters, we had nothing at all to do with it in any way and Mr Beazley is saying it's our fault. Now I think that's a rotten slur, even the heat of an election campaign does not justify that kind of language.

MURRAY:
Okay lets got to the lines now, Barbara the Prime Minister is listening, good morning.

CALLER:
Good morning Prime Minister. First up I'd like to say that I'm very proud that you are our Prime Minister especially since the 11 September. I'm normally a Labor voter and I won't be voting Labor this election, I will be voting for you because I found that you're very, I'm very proud that you were our Prime Minister that day. What I do want to ask is do we give foreign aid to Indonesia because I'm not impressed that the leader of Indonesia Megawati snubbed you.

PRIME MINISTER:
We do give foreign aid to Indonesia, it's project aid, in other words it goes to particular projects which are designed to help less fortunate people in Indonesia. We don't give as much to Indonesia as we give say to Papua New Guinea. There remains a case for giving aid to Indonesia because in the long run relations between the people of Indonesia and the people of Australia are important even though there will be some difficulties at a government level.

MURRAY:
Okay thank Barbara. Good morning Glenys.

CALLER:
Good morning, good morning Prime Minister.

PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning Glenys.

CALLER:
I would, if you're returned to office Mr Howard would you give two absolute guarantees that one the GST would not be raised and two that if you need more money, which you will need, that you will not take it from disadvantaged people and people on low incomes.

PRIME MINISTER:
I can give an absolute guarantee on both of those. There's no way we're going to lift the GST. The GST is set at 10 per cent, it's not changeable. And as for taking money from disadvantaged people, no. We had been very careful to protect the interests of disadvantaged people, for example the increase in the pension since the GST was introduced has been about two per cent greater than the increase in the cost of living over the same period of time and on top of that of course there was the $300 pensioner bonus contained in the budget and finally in relation to the less welloff in the community a study by an independent group at the Australian National University has found that our family benefits under tax reform have been heavily weighted in favour of low income families who are on every score much better off as a result of our tax reform than they were previously.

MURRAY:
Thanks Glenys. Good morning to you Natasha, the Prime Minister's listening.

PRIME MINISTER:
Oh good morning Paul, good morning Prime Minister. Look I've just got a bit of a comment actually and it's a thank you really because I got a letter from Bank West on Friday and our interest rate payments have come down about $36 a month in the last fortnight and with the new family and a new baby that really really helps so just a thanks very much.

PRIME MINISTER:
Well I appreciate that Natasha. On a $100,000 loan which is an average throughout the whole of Australia, or only just so given the way prices have moved, you're $350 a month better off than in March of 1996. Now when you add that to the fact that people's real incomes have gone up and there are more jobs that does represent a very significant increase in people's living standards. I mean that is after all, I keep getting people saying to me of you know the bread and butter issues in this campaign are the ones that are important, there's nothing more bread and butter than the take home pay which is needed to buy the bread and butter and if your wages have gone up there are more jobs and your interest rates are lower, people are better off. And that has happened over the last five and a half years and that's why if I can make a comment this election campaign is not just about what people offer and say in five weeks but what people have done or not done over five and a half years.

MURRAY:
Yes interesting poll out in the Sydney Morning Herald today in relation to the question asked by Kim Beazley in the leaders debate, are you better off? The AC Nielsen poll actually shows 56 per cent of people say yes.

PRIME MINISTER:
I find, can I say Paul I find that an amazing result in the sense that people, there's a natural tendency no matter what the evidence is that people to think that they're not so well off, I think that's a fantastic result. I really do, I'm really quite encouraged by that. I mean it is true but often we don't feel that way. I mean we often think back nostalgically and things that happened five, 10, 15 years ago are always better, although in reality they're often not, they're often worse.

MURRAY:
G'day Perry the Prime Minister's with you now.

CALLER:
Oh hello Prime Minister, how do you do?

PRIME MINISTER:
Very well.

CALLER:
Yes, it's to do with foreign policy rather than domestic issues Prime Minister.

PRIME MINISTER:
Sure.

CALLER:
Obviously the state of affairs. The World Trade Centre bombings really have stemmed from long term terrorism in the mid-east, I mean it's not a new thing.

PRIME MINISTER:
No.

CALLER:
And the half of it spans in Palestine and I'm wondering our government, where do we stand on Israel/Palestine/United States issue? The various…

PRIME MINISTER:
Well…

CALLER:
No please I haven't… if I may ask the question please.

PRIME MINISTER:
Sure you can go for your life.

CALLER:
Thank you. We are seeking are signatories to committing to removing Israel troops from the occupied territories of Palestine on the one hand, Australia are committed, and we aren't moving them away from the occupied territories. We're quite happy, we watch Israel invading the territories every night on television, we are signatories to the United Nations' resolution 242 Australia where we must comply with that resolution which is to tell Israel to withdraw back to the (inaudible) their own territories. Right now Ariel Sharon is making statements…

MURRAY:
Can I make a point please Perry, there are a lot of people who want to get to the Prime Minister.

CALLER:
Yes, yes, yes, yes. Where do we stand? On the way hand if America tells us not to interfere in Palestine yet when America tells us to send our troops, our boys, our girls overseas to get killed, let's be serious, I don't like this because the Arab world is just so…

MURRAY:
Okay Perry, now you've had long enough, Prime Minister.

PRIME MINISTER:
Well can I start by saying to Perry and the listeners America doesn't tell us to do anything. We do everything of our own free will. Our policy on the Middle East is very simple, we support the establishment of a Palestinian home land. We also support though the right of Israel to exist within secure defensible boundaries. Nobody is more saddened than the Australian Government by the collapse of peace talks in the Middle East. I'd remind listeners that a little over a year ago when Ehud Barak was the Prime Minister of Israel he offered in his peace settlement close to 90 per cent of the demands of the PLO and I can say to Perry and others I was in Israel at a time when hopes were very high. At the encouragement of Barak I went to Gaza, I met Arafat, I was accompanied by senior figures in the Australian Jewish community and people were full of hope. Now in all of these situations you need compromise and I certainly believe that a settlement in the Middle East in its own right quite apart from its impact in relation to the debate on terrorism, quite apart from that we desperately need it. It doesn't look too good at the present time but that's our policy, it's even-handed. Yes we support a Palestinian homeland but there has to be an acceptance of, the unconditional acceptance of the right of Israel to peacefully exist within secure and defensible boundaries but it would be wrong of people to imagine that the issue of terrorism would be solved if you just had a settlement of the Palestinian question. There are deeper and other causes and that was very apparent to me, not just from my own observation or from what the American President said in Shanghai but also what the Russian President said and the Russian President is a person who's had some dealings with fundamentalist terrorism and I stress again that we do not have an argument with Islam we have an argument with evil doers no matter what their religion is.

MURRAY:
David's on the line for you Prime Minister, good morning David.

CALLER:
Good morning. Mr Prime Minister earlier on this year is it true that you had about $6 billion?

PRIME MINISTER:
Well we had a surplus…

CALLER:
You had a surplus about…

PRIME MINISTER:
Well you're asking me a question, can I answer it. We had a surplus in last year's budget of just under $6 billion, I think it was about $5.1.

CALLER:
Yeah well we've ended up with what half a billion?

PRIME MINISTER:
Well…

CALLER:
$500 million.

PRIME MINISTER:
That is the projection for this year, that's right. Because we've spent it on some very good things like defence and salinity and roads and health.

CALLER:
Yes I know where the money's gone.

PRIME MINISTER:
You're against that?

CALLER:
No I'm not, but I just want to point out that you did say that you wasn't going to put the GST up.

PRIME MINISTER:
That's right.

CALLER:
Where do you plan to get the money to plan for these refugees and this war then? Can you tell me that?

PRIME MINISTER:
Well the cost, a lot of the cost is already factored into the budget. I mean the budget covers the cost of those things over the remainder of this financial year. But can I just make a comment about the GST, the great advantage of the GST is that it grows with the economy. That is its advantage. And the other advantage of the GST is that all of it goes to the states so that as the states get better off they've got more money to spend on government schools and public hospitals. That was a point I've made constantly that seems to escape the Opposition that they're talking all the time about the need to spend more on education and health. We've bought in the tax system that will guarantee that the people who run the major health and public hospital institutions in this country, namely the states, have got the wherewithal to do it.

MURRAY:
Okay thanks David, good morning Wally.

CALLER:
Good morning Paul, good morning Prime Minister. I just want to take up the point on improved living conditions Prime Minister. I'm a TPI pensioner and previously when the pension was bought out it used to run at around about 95 per cent of the male total average weekly wage and now it's currently only 45 per cent. We look after our former Government Generals, I was wondering if you would give an unequivocal guarantee that you'd look into conditions for TPI pensioners.

PRIME MINISTER:
Well it may not fully satisfy what you've asked for but then it may and when I released the veterans affairs policies I made a couple of specific commitments, one was in relation to the extension of the Gold Card for post-World War II activity conflicts. Another was the unfreezing of adjustments for war widows and I said that we'd had an inquiry into any anomalies and so forth that people felt operated in the veterans' affairs area. Now I dare say that as a result of that commitment people will be able to make submissions about the party or the relationship between the TPI pension and male average weekly earnings.

MURRAY:
Okay Prime Minister I've been inundated, well I've had about 14 e-mails sent to me overnight by people who are caught up in tax effective investments. Now I'm not going to go into the issue with you because I spoke to you about it last time on the show. They're clearly campaigning hard against the government, I'd just pass on if I can to you to keep faith for these people, they're concerned, they still think the ATO has been unfair to them and its clearly an issue that hasn't been resolved before the election campaign as you probably would have wished it to have been.

PRIME MINISTER:
Well there are test cases, there is no recovery action being taken while those test cases are underway. The commissioner and the government have already given some assurances in relation to the imposition of penalties and interests which I think are very fair and reasonable. I know people have been critical of the tax office. We don't have time to go into all the ins and outs of it would I remind your listeners that one of the promises I made in the business policy that I released at the beginning of last week which was a very substantial policy about third term agenda for business reform. I said that we would establish an office of the inspector general of the Australian Taxation Office and the purpose of this independent agenda for business reform. I said that we would establish an office of the inspector general of the Australian Taxation Office and the purpose of this independent person, separate from the government, separate from the tax office, was to really provide a vehicle for people who felt they hadn't been entirely treated in a proper way by the tax office but it would still keep it independent of the government which in should and I think that will go a long way towards meeting the general concerns of people in this area.

MURRAY:
Prime Minister very good of you to spend some time with us today. I appreciate it.

PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you.

MURRAY:
Good luck with Larry King later.

[ends]