[Extracted from Senate Hansard, 16 October 2003]

ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ON NOTICE
Question No. 1637
Senator JACINTA COLLINS (Victoria) (3.21 p.m.)-Pursuant to standing order 74(5), I ask the Minister for Justice and Customs, Senator Ellison, for an explanation as to why an answer has not been provided to my question on notice No. 1637, dated 17 July 2003, regarding the sinking of SIEVX.

Senator FERRIS (South Australia) (3.21 p.m.)On behalf of the Minister for Justice and Customs, Senator Ellison, I seek leave to table the response to the question raised by Senator Collins. I apologise that a previous appointment has meant that Minister Ellison is not able to be here.

The PRESIDENT-Is leave granted?

Senator Robert Ray-No. I understand that Senator Ellison has a good excuse. It should have been given by Senator Vanstone, as duty minister; it is not a job for the whip in this case. That is no criticism of Senator Ferris; it is a frontbencher's duty to act on behalf of another minister.

The PRESIDENT-I understand that answers to questions should be incorporated rather than tabled; so perhaps the minister at the table could incorporate the answer, which would solve both problems.

Senator VANSTONE (South Australia-Minister for Immigration and Multicultural and Indigenous Affairs and Minister Assisting the Prime Minister for Reconciliation) (3.22 p.m.)-I seek leave to incorporate an answer from the Minister for Justice and Customs to a question asked by Senator Collins on notice on 17 July.

Leave granted.

The answer read as follows-

MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CUSTOMS SENATE
(Question No. 1637)
Senator Collins asked the Minister for Justice and Customs, upon notice, on 17 July 2003:
With reference to the Australian Federal Police (AFP) response to Senator Collins' question on notice 58, from the additional estimates hearings. of the Legal and Constitutional Legislation Committee in November 2002, in which it was indicated b the AFP that assistance was sought of the Royal Australian Navy (RAN) personnel at Post to calculate where the vessel [SIEV X] may have foundered:
(1) What was the outcome of the RAN's investigations into calculating where the SIEV X sank.

(2) (a) What was the information that the RAN obtained about the company believed to have owned SIEV X; and (b) can the AFP name that company.

(3) Was the North Jakarta Harbourmaster's report of the SIEV X survivor rescue coordinates, dated 24 October 2001 (10241530 G , taken into account when the RAN made attempts to calculate where the SIEV foundered; if not, why not.

(4) Did the AFP or any other Australian agency, whilst investigating where the SIEV X had foundered, ever interview the Harbourmaster at the Sunda Kelapa Port,

North Jakarta; if s, what was the outcome of this interview; if not, why not.

(5) If the Harbourmaster's coordinates have not been full investigated by the AFP, how then can the AFP claim `all avenues of enquiry have been exhausted' with regard to calculating where SIEV X foundered.

Senator Ellison - The answer to the honourable senator's question is as follows:
(1) This is a matter for response by the Minister for Defence.

(2) This is a matter for response by the Minister for Defence.

(3) This is a matter for response by the Minister for Defence.

(4) The AFP has not interviewed the Harbourmaster at the Sunda Kelapa Port, North Jakarta. The AFP is not able to advise whether Indonesian Nation Police have interviewed the Harbourmaster.

On 22 October 2001, the AFP liaison officer based in Jakarta became aware that a vessel known subsequently as SIEV X had foundered with a large loss of life. At the time of the incident the extent of loss of life was estimated at 353. The location of the incident was unknown.

On the 22 October 2001 the AFP liaison officer spoke to one of the SIEV X survivors via telephone and acquired an overview of what had occurred in respect to the founding of the SIEV X.

On 23 October 2001, the AFP liaison officer with the assistance of other Australian agencies at post in Jakarta produced a cable which outlined the current situation in respect to the SIEV X, including an estimate of where the boat foundered. At that time all avenues of enquiry available to the AFP at post were exhausted in determining the location of where the SIEV X foundered, as investigations in Indonesia are the responsibility of the Indonesian National Police.

On 23 October 2001, Indonesian National Police (INP) advised the AFP liaison officer that the INP were conducting an investigation into the sinking of the SIEV X.

The AFP has maintained an ongoing investigation into the people smuggling aspect of the SIEV X disaster.

The AFP People Smuggling Strike Team as a result of its investigations has identified a number of organisers concerning the SIEV X enterprise. The AFP has sought extradition of two principle organisers, these being, Abu Quassey and Khaled Daoed.

On 24 April 2003 Abu Quassey was deported from Indonesia to Egypt. Through the assistance of the Attorney General's Department and The Department of Foreign Affairs the AFP has sought to extradite Abu Quassey from Egypt. To date the Egyptian authorities have not responded to this request. The AFP has also offered assistance to Egyptian Authorities who it is understood are prosecuting Abu Quassey for offences relating to the death of passengers on board SIEV X and People Smuggling related offences. Whilst it is inappropriate to go into the detail of this assistance, I am advised that the AFP investigation has obtained evidence relevant to the prosecution of Abu Quassey and others in relation to these aspects of the SIEV X disaster.

As this process is ongoing and negotiations to provide this information to Egyptian Authorities are underway it would be inappropriate to make further comment.

As a result of AFP PSST inquiries Khaled Daoed has also been identified in relation to the SIEV X matter.

His extradition is currently being sought from Sweden.

As such it would be inappropriate to comment further on this matter.

The AFP investigation into the SIEV X disaster has been extensive and is ongoing.

Witnesses have been identified, located and interviewed in a number of countries and statements have been taken with the assistance of foreign police services.

Organisers of the SIEV X matter have been identified with a view to prosecution, be that by the AFP through extradition or in cooperation with the jurisdiction in which they are located.

The AFP P S ST continues to work co-operatively with the INP, who rightfully have jurisdiction in Indonesia, to seek out witnesses relevant to all SIEV X investigations.

The timing and decision on when such interviews takes place, lays appropriately with the investigators be they the INP or the PSST. This matter is ongoing and is achieving tangible results. It involves sensitive international relationships and inquiries and assistance from foreign police. As these investigations are ongoing it is inappropriate to make further comment.

(5) The AFP Jakarta Post has confirmed that the INP has made contact with the Harbour Administrator (a separate entity to the Harbour Master). The INP is still attempting to locate the Harbour Master but have not yet located him.

The AFP is not privy to information which either corroborates or discounts the coordinates allegedly reported by the Harbourmaster. The INP advised the AFP on 23 October 2001, that the INP were conducting an investigation into the sinking of the SIEV X.

Whether the INP has interviewed the Harbourmaster is a matter for the INP.

On 23 October 2001, the AFP members used information obtained from the INP and other sources, together with knowledge based on experience with previous people smuggling activities, to develop estimates of the characteristics of the SIEV X vessel.

AFP members then sought the assistance of Royal Australian Navy (RAN) personnel at the Australian Embassy in Jakarta to calculate where the vessel may have foundered. I believe information regarding RAN assistance has been provided to Senator Collins by the Minister for Defence in his answer to the question taken on notice on 17 July 2003.

Based on the information available at the time, all avenues of inquiry had been fully exhausted with regards to calculating where SIEV X foundered.

The AFP investigation into the people smuggling syndicate behind SIEV X is ongoing. It is not appropriate for the detail of these inquiries be provided as this is an ongoing operation.

I am advised that the INP has, and continues to assist the AFP People Smuggling Strike Team. Any decision to interview Indonesian Citizens rightfully lays with the Indonesian National Police. The AFP People Smuggling Strike Team will continue to work cooperatively with the INP in relation to this investigation in order to identify and interview potential witnesses.

Senator JACINTA COLLINS (Victoria) (3.22 p.m.)-I move to take note of the answer. I think it is fairly obvious to all present that I am not aware of the adequacy of the response from the Minister for Justice and Customs at this stage.

The PRESIDENT-Senator, I think you need leave to do that. I understand from the Clerk of the Senate that previous conventions have been that, if an answer is provided, that is the end of it. Previous rulings-not mine-have ruled that way: if an answer is provided, that is the end of it. In any event, you will need leave.

Senator JACINTA COLLINS-I seek leave to take note of the answer. When the minister indicated that he was going to table his response, which I have still not seen, I indicated that I was desirous of making a couple of points on this issue. For Senator Vanstone's benefit, he was not unhappy with that matter.

The PRESIDENT-Leave is not granted at this point in time. If you are not satisfied once you have read the answer, you may come back and seek leave again to make a statement...

[snip]

ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ON NOTICE
Question No. 1637
Senator JACINTA COLLINS (Victoria) (3.34 p.m.)-by leave-I move:
That the Senate take note of the answers given by the Minister for Immigration and Multicultural and Indigenous Affairs representing the Minister for Justice and Customs.

In relation to the answers to these questions on the Senate Notice Paper that are some 30 days outstanding, I would like to note that these answers and the answers provided previously by Senator Hill in relation to questions to the Department of Defence, do not go to an adequate response to the critical issue about the SIEVX that remains a matter of public concern. The issue is the failure to demonstrate an adequate response to the vessel's foundering and the concern that, from government agencies, this is more about protecting the Prime Minister's claim that the ship sank in Indonesian territory and was, as a consequence, not a responsibility for the Australian government, when several other indicators seem to indicate that it was actually in international waters and it should have been more to our concern.

There were two elements of this answer that I wish to highlight in relation to the AFP. The first is that it asserts in point (5):
Based on the information available at the time, all avenues of inquiry had been fully exhausted with regards to calculating where SIEV X foundered.

But it seems to contradict itself earlier in point (5), where it says:
The AFP is not privy to information which either corroborates or discounts the coordinates allegedly reported by the Harbourmaster.

And even earlier in point (5), it says:
The AFP Jakarta Post has confirmed that the INP has made contact with the Harbour Administrator (a separate entity to the Harbour Master). The INP is still attempting to locate the Harbour Master but have not yet located him.

This is simply not good enough. More than 350 lives were lost when this vessel foundered, and for there to be detailed coordinates in relation to the vessel that saved the remaining people from this vessel and for them to never have been attempted to have been corroborated-and for us to be told now so far from the time of the sinking that nobody has sought to contact the harbour master to corroborate or discount those coordinates-is outrageous.

What makes it more outrageous with respect to the Australian agencies is that we were told by Defence, during hearings of the inquiry into a certain maritime incident, that these coordinates could be discounted.

Now we discover, from further information from Defence and from the AFP that they have, to quote the answer today, no basis to either corroborate or discount those coordinates. But then it indicates neglect. No-one has sought that corroboration other than to say, `IMP might be looking into it, but they have never found him and that's none of our business.' It is simply not good enough.

I note the Greens motion yesterday and the Democrats motion today, again in relation to the SIEVX. This issue will not go away. With respect to the answers that have been provided by the AFP and the Department of Defence, we will keep raising questions through Senate estimates about why we never sought to understand what had happened to these souls. It is outrageous that in this climate we do know the full details of all of the poor souls who suffered in Bali but in relation to this tragedy we still cannot get a list of those who drowned.

There are some reasonable explanations for some issues there, but that is another example of neglect and lack of respect for people in relation to how this was managed. I will seek to make further comments on these issues at another time.

Question agreed to.

X-URL: http://www.aph.gov.au/hansard/senate/dailys/ds161003.pdf

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